ÍÑ¿ã°É

Dr. Danika LeDuc is a Professor of Chemistry and Biochemistry at ÍÑ¿ã°É Bay and serves as Associate Dean for the College of Science. Trained as a biochemist, her work has expanded into toxicology and the bioremediation of metals, reflecting a deep commitment to addressing environmental challenges through science.

Her path into chemistry was not linear. Initially interested in genetics and environmental engineering, she ultimately found her place in chemistry through coursework that challenged and inspired her. Along the way, mentorship and unexpected opportunities played a critical role in shaping her career—including a postdoctoral experience that led her into environmental research.

Beyond her research, Dr. LeDuc is deeply invested in teaching and faculty development. She has led STEM faculty learning programs that encourage educators to rethink how students experience science, emphasizing active learning, sensemaking, and engagement. Her work centers on creating more equitable and accessible pathways for students to participate in research and succeed in STEM.

At the heart of her approach is a belief that science education is not just about training future scientists—it’s about empowering people to think critically, stay curious, and engage thoughtfully with the world.

Learn more about Danika

Resources & Opportunities

Looking to explore science beyond the classroom? Check out these organizations and spaces around the Bay Area:

Research & Campus Resources

• HOST Lab (CSU East Bay): /hostlab

Outdoor & Environmental Learning

• Peninsula Open Space Trust:

• East Bay Regional Park District:

• California State Parks:

• Fitzgerald Marine Reserve:

Science Centers & Museums

• Exploratorium:

• Chabot Space & Science Center:

• Lawrence Hall of Science:

• The Tech Interactive:

• Computer History Museum:

Rethinking How We Learn Science: Teaching, access, and the future of STEM education

[00:00:00] Carmen: This is Science Stories from ÍÑ¿ã°É Bay, a podcast where scientists come together in human conversation. In each episode, we share what sparks our guests’ interest in science and what they're doing now at Cal State Bay through research, classroom experiences, industry, and culture, from students to faculty to alumni.

These are the voices shaping science in the Bay Area and at ÍÑ¿ã°É Bay.

Welcome to Science Stories from ÍÑ¿ã°É Bay. I'm your host, Carmen Bustos-Works, and today's guest is Dr. Danika LeDuc, a scientist, educator, and academic leader. Dr. LeDuc is a professor of chemistry and biochemistry at ÍÑ¿ã°É East Bay, where she also serves as Associate Dean for the College of Science.

Over her career. She has also served as an associate dean for the Institute for STEM Education and as a principal investigator and co-principal investigator on numerous externally funded projects here at East Bay. She earned her bachelor's degree in chemistry from Massachusetts Institute of Technology and her PhD in biochemistry from UC Berkeley, where she also served as a postdoctoral fellow.

Danika is a trained biochemist and has expanded her research into toxicology and bioremediation of metals. She has brought her expertise into the classroom and into faculty development. Danika has led STEM faculty learning program designed to help professors get back into the seat of the learner.

These programs invite faculty to rethink how students experience science, emphasizing active learning. Sensemaking and engagement rather than passive absorbance. At the core of all of this is a genuine care for people, students, local teachers, and faculty alike. Danika combines intellectual rigor with humility, curiosity, and a deep commitment to improving how science is taught and learned.

She understands that strong science education isn't just about producing future scientists. It's about empowering people to think critically. Ask better questions and engage thoughtfully with the world. I'm excited for my conversation today with Danika LeDuc, and for a chance to hear her science story, how she came to this work, and why it continues to matter to her.

Thank you and welcome, Danika. So I wanna start by going back a bit. Before your titles or your degrees or your career ambitions, and I was wondering if you could share a childhood memory or an early experience with science that shaped how you think or feel about science today.

[00:03:05] Danika: Thank you Carmen. Actually, I think one thing that stands out to me about my childhood from a science perspective is that I spent a lot of time outdoors, and I was very lucky to have some woods and some fields behind my house and a creek, and we were just, me and all the neighborhood kids would just be playing in them all the time. And of course, that gives you lots of questions like, why are these trees bark this color? And why are these leaves this color? And why are these animals here? We would capture animals. Yes. And we released them. Don't worry, and I think that was for me, where it all started. It also happened to be, our house was actually on what used to be a dump, which was a great thing because you could do archeological digs when you did your vegetable garden.

So that's what I remember a lot. I also really loved reading. And I was also very fortunate to be able to go to a summer camp starting when I was eight, that actually let you go to a college and work in an actual chemistry lab. And I think that's what got me really excited because, chemistry, which I became a chemist, lets you play safely with fire and liquid nitrogen and make things change color, and that just sounded really cool.

[00:04:34] Carmen: Oh, that's amazing. When you think about those memories now, and you think about where we're at in the East Bay, do you see some of those opportunities for kids in these bigger urban cities to really. Look at some of these natural phenomena and think, why is that leaf turning a different color?

[00:04:55] Danika: Yeah, I do.

I think that, you know, it's a different time, so people aren't playing unsupervised like I used to back in the eighties. But there are amazing nature places, and we have so many different micro ecosystems just in the Bay Area. And when I think about it, you can go to the tide pools, you can go to the redwood forest.

You can go to grasslands, you can see different geological formations. And we're really fortunate, I think, in the state of California that so much of this land has been set aside and is publicly accessible. But you do have to do a little research to know where it is and perhaps get transportation there.

On the other hand, the fact that there are so many different types of ecosystems so close is actually a really rich opportunity to ask those kinds of questions.

 

[00:05:56] Carmen: I also think with kids being able to directly touch things is a really good entry point for science. I know sometimes as chemists and physicists, we might struggle a little bit to, when we have college students to really get them to think about things that are more abstract, where biology sometimes.

It's a little bit easier because you can touch and feel things and I think taking those things that you can touch and feel and then kind of pulling on the abstract will be a nice way to get students to think more abstractly as well.

[00:06:31] Danika: Oh, definitely. And, I think that kids should touch more things and maybe get dirty a little bit more.

I just, that's, that's how you learn when you're a young child and that is your entry point into science, I think for sure.

[00:06:47] Carmen: And I'm really hopeful with the Green Biome Center that we have on our campus, and for our listeners, we'll probably explain that in future episodes, but we're gonna have a botanical garden out in front of our science building.

And, I think back to the arboretum in Golden Gate Park and different ways you can walk around and look at plants. And we're hoping to expand that into an edible garden as well. And I think all the things you're saying really makes me think about different ways our students can dig in the dirt and think about pH, think about soil, think about water.

Yeah, it'll be really amazing to have those living, learning opportunities and then be able to have the community come and tour it as well.

[00:07:29] Danika: Definitely. I mean, I think anytime you get to grow something, it's a great experiment, so.

[00:07:36] Carmen: Well, when, when did you realize that science might be something that you wanted to study seriously?

And what led you to the field that you chose? So was it this one isolated opportunity when you got to go to this camp and study chemistry? Where you locked in at that point? Or were there other, um, lived experiences that maybe you had along the way?

[00:07:59] Danika: Yeah. It's interesting that you asked that because I didn't actually start college as a chemistry major, so that was an experience I had, but it wasn't a straight path. Actually, I don't know, I probably was about seven when I started getting really into genetics.

[00:08:18] Carmen: Oh, wow.

[00:08:19] Danika: I know my mom taught me about Punnett squares, and I just thought that was really cool that, you know, how some, because my sister and brother have blue eyes and I have brown eyes, and they're fraternal twins. And that whole genetics thing was super interesting to me, and I thought that's what I was gonna do.

But when I was in high school, I got really involved in being very concerned about our environment and the planet, and I thought, this is where I want to go. This is what I wanna do. I want to not be a, a net negative to the planet. And so I actually started as an environmental engineering major, which was an interesting choice.

But I was advised by one of my professors, he actually wrote a letter to me, a handwritten letter to me that I received over the summer, encouraging me to study either chemistry or biology because he felt like I was a person that needed to go deep into problems. And engineering is, at least at the undergrad level, you study lots of different things, but you don't deeply study one thing. I think I appreciated that insight into myself.

And so in my sophomore year, I took genetics and also organic and physical chemistry. And I'm gonna be honest, I don't like my genetics class. In fact, the poor guy, he killed a bunch of fruit flies in the middle of class. I don't know, it just, the way they taught biology classes didn't work for me, but I loved how they taught organic chemistry and physical chemistry. Like it, it wasn't easy, but it somehow made sense to me.

And I started putting those pieces together, and that's when I decided to go into chemistry because from a chemistry major, I felt like that was a place that I could contribute to the environment.

 

[00:10:19] Carmen: That's a really interesting story. It's, it reminds me when I was an undergrad, and I loved biology, and I started taking chemistry, and I loved chemistry, and then I took biochemistry, and I didn't like it, and I thought, how weird I would think, I would love those two things put together. So it's funny how you have these con concepts of what a course will be like, and if it doesn't quite play out that way, it can really turn your whole trajectory in a different direction.

[00:10:53] Danika: Yeah, no, I definitely, and I tried sitting, like taking other biology classes, and I sat in on some, even when I was in grad school, and it was just like the delivery of it just didn't work for me, but I felt like I needed that knowledge and those skills. So I tried to, and I did work in labs where I gained skills that were important in biology, in the study of biology.

And so, I think that was a good mix for me. I liked working in the biology labs. I just didn't like the biology classes.

[00:11:28] Carmen: Well, it's interesting 'cause I've noticed that genetics is one of these classes. That students struggle in.

[00:11:34] Danika: Yeah. Yeah. Mm mm

[00:11:36] Carmen: And when I was at Humboldt, it was something we talked a lot about that one particular genetics class, and I know since I've gotten to East Bay, there's also been conversations about genetics.

And so it's so important. I wonder, later on, we'll have conversations about maybe how those courses might be redesigned to really reach more people so that everybody can be successful in that course, and it ends up being a bottleneck at an upper division level if we're not careful, because we're requiring it now for most biology majors.

[00:12:13] Danika: Mm-hmm. Yep. Mm-hmm. That's true.

[00:12:15] Carmen: Mm-hmm. So, um, so going back to your lived experiences, can you share thoughts on your career path that you're, that you took off on, and thinking about those lived experiences, things that influenced that pathway, and it sounds like you've had these, um teachers that really took an interest in you and reached out to you, that probably shaped where you were going.

And in reflecting on that, what else do you hope to accomplish?

[00:12:47] Danika: That's a lot of questions, but they're good questions. I guess for me, yeah, I wish that I was a person that had like a five-year a 10-year, and a 15-year plan, but that's never been me. I kind of see when opportunities come up, and they seem like they fit.

I tend to try them out, and that's actually worked for me pretty well. The reason I went to Berkeley was I wanted to leave the East Coast. I had grown up there, and I wanted to have a different experience. And the other reason was Berkeley for grad school is the biggest chemistry program in the world.

So I figured since I don't know what I wanna do, I should be able to find something I wanna do there. And I did, I worked on biophysical chemistry. I worked on proteins actually, that have to do with how the flu virus infects us, which was, I realized, very far from the environment. But it was something that was really interesting to me at that time, which was protein structure and dynamics.

But things didn't quite work out the way I wanted. My advisor didn't get tenure. He left, and I was kind of at a point where I could finish if I wrote really fast, which I did, but I didn't land on my feet for my postdoc the way I thought I would. And that was because someone didn't get a grant to fund me.

So long story short, I had worked, or sorry, volunteered for a program for special needs kids in an aquatics program teaching them how to swim. And this was something I did outside of my lab and teaching work. And someone there was like, oh, we're hiring in my lab and we work on phytoremediation and we could use a chemist and a biochemist.

And I was like, wow. That's a total departure from what I've done, but okay, I'm gonna give it a shot. And I did. And so that is what I did for my postdoc, and that's the research I brought with me to East Bay, looking at mainly metal and metalloid accumulation in plants and how that affects the environment.

So in terms of teaching, that's something I've always wanted to do. So I'm really happy that I was able to find a faculty position and work at a place that values teaching as much as ÍÑ¿ã°É Bay does. I love working with the students and the faculty and the staff. It's a really welcoming and warm place.

My goals for the future are really to make that experience a reality for as many students as possible. So I feel that I had a lot of lucky opportunities, and I'd like to make those opportunities more structured for more people. So it's not just a matter of circumstance if you happen to get to know a professor and they happen to help you, but that's just the norm for most of our students.

That's what I would like to do and the rest of my time here at East Bay.

[00:16:04] Carmen: I love that. I think that's so important. And I'll just call it that equity piece, right? Because there's, for a long time, if you wanted undergraduate experiences or you had research experiences, you had to really find the professor, go and talk to them, hopefully get into the lab.

I can remember at San Francisco State getting turned down. Which might be another reason I didn't like biochemistry, biochemist. My labs all filled up, and the inorganic chemist took me in, and I was very appreciative of that. So I think that's really admirable and, I think we need to really switch that dynamic, so everybody can have those opportunities if we're, especially if we want to continue to have the best scientists and access to science. People need to get into the labs and be able to do that type of research. I'm curious, since you said you al always wanted to be a teacher, when you were, you had, I don't know if, are your brother and sister younger?

[00:17:14] Danika: Yes.

[00:17:15] Carmen: Did you ever? I have a younger cousin, and I can remember making her play school.

[00:17:21] Danika: Oh, they played a lot of school. They had no choice. Most definitely when we weren't allowed outside 'cause I grew up in Massachusetts, so there were days where you didn't wanna play outside. Inside time was school.

School time for them.

[00:17:37] Carmen: And I can remember as a child loving, you know, we didn't have as much stuff when I was a kid, but like the sticky notes, we didn't have those, you know, but any office supply. I could get my hands on. I would try and set things up, and then my cousin, I would make her play school. I don't think she loved it as much as I did.

[00:17:57] Danika: Well, my sister became a teacher so, and my brother did teach for a while, so I guess we all did a little bit of it.

[00:18:03] Carmen: Oh, how fun. Well, okay. I got a couple more questions here for you. When you talk with students, and you and I have talked about this too, when you talk to your kids, and we talk to students, you know, things are changing, the landscape is changing, and this always happens, right?

I'm sure I probably sound like the old fogey now, like when I was a kid, but I find myself giving advice at least to my own children, especially, but I also feel obligated to give advice to our students. Do you think about that when you're talking to our students these days? What kind of advice you want to give them? What kind of advice do you give them about college? About studying science, about careers or just about, I feel like right now in college, our students don't have the privilege and the luxury to just have fun. We're putting a lot of pressure on them. To be finished and get a job.

[00:19:11] Danika: Yeah. I, I totally agree with you, Carmen.

And it's challenging to have those conversations because I can understand why people feel that pressure and why they wanna just plug in and know that everything's gonna be safe if they just do this and get this job. But I feel by sharing my story, like there were times where I didn't know what I was doing and I was kind of lost.

And what has always helped me is just being open to trying something new and taking a chance. And I think when I was younger, I mean, I was definitely nervous about that, but as I've gotten older, I keep gaining those experiences is like, well, you didn't know what you were doing, you went out, you gave it your best, and it turned out well.

So it's okay to not be good at something right off the bat. It's okay. I mean, in full transparency, I got like a C on my first organic chemistry test 'cause I didn't know what was going on. I didn't know what the guy was doing on the board, but. I was like, well, let's keep trying. Let's figure it out.

And I did, and so I just guess don't give up on yourself, and also the kinds of jobs you're gonna do in 30 years from when you graduate. And this isn't just me, this is the world. There's very little connection between what you major in and anything after your first or second job. The skills that you need are skills that you develop as you mature as an adult, as you learn more problem-solving and team building, and these things. So I guess my advice is study what you love and take those opportunities to challenge yourself when they're there.

[00:21:10] Carmen: Yeah, I agree. It's, it's interesting. The pressure that the students put on themselves these days, and that we're putting on them as a society.

But I love that study what you love, and things will work out, and I think we've seen that regardless of your approach, if it's the liberal arts or the sciences, by doing that, you end up getting to the place where you're the happiest, hopefully.

[00:21:40] Danika: Yeah, I think so. And I do really believe in the concept of lifelong learning.

I mean, we all have these amazing brains in our heads that have the capacity to do so many things so to limit ourselves to just a single occupation or a single discipline, I'm not, I don't think that's the right fit for most people. And I would hope that they have a life that has many aspects to it and that they, that they take the opportunities to learn different things while they're in college, but also beyond.

[00:22:17] Carmen: So when students ask you about that, 'cause we have a couple ways we structure our curriculum, right? We have general education, and then we have the major piece of it. And it's been my experience that sometimes our science students will push back on that general education part. What advice do you give students when they do that?

Knowing that you're dedicated to lifelong learning and that exposure to the other topics is probably a good thing?

[00:22:49] Danika: Yeah, I can think back to some of the conversations I had, and some students fully still value their love of art, their love of music, I think, and they continue to pursue that.

But I do think that some people feel, well, if I'm gonna be a science major or an engineering major, that has to be my life, and I have to dedicate myself solely to that. I just try to give them examples where that's totally not true, and that actually spending time with your brain doing something totally different is actually better for your career and for learning.

You shouldn't always be just studying science, because you need to develop in different ways. By sharing with students like my interest in art, my interest in music, that I studied Latin, I mean like, all the random things in politics and all the random things that I studied in college, and since then, my interests have continued.

They're like, oh yeah, I used to like art when I was a kid, and I'm like well you still can do art even though you're like, even though you're a biology major. And they're like, yeah, maybe I can. And so I think that's partially our fault as a discipline or a career that we make people think that being a scientist or an engineer means you're like up at the crack of dawn just working on problems, um, the whole day.

And that's really no one's reality. Even Einstein was a musician, so.

[00:24:36] Carmen: Yeah, and it makes me, you know, people too have told me, oh, you're, you're a chemist, you're so smart, but I am creative.

[00:24:44] Danika: Yeah. That also is an odd, odd sentence to say because I think scientists are also creative people.

[00:24:52] Carmen: Yeah.

[00:24:54] Danika: And other people are smart too.

[00:24:55] Carmen: Like exactly, exactly right. This whole right brain versus left brain, and you're not a math person or you are a math person. Instead of that growth mindset really limiting or chunking out different pathways, it's interesting. And when you go back to the curriculum, oh, I just wanna get that GE out of the way.

Yeah, I'll just take that one over the summer or push that one aside as if they're putting a value on it.

[00:25:29] Danika: No, they definitely, definitely, I do try to, I try to push back on that because one of the beautiful things about going to college is that you can experience different ways of thought, hopefully, and be able to look at things from perspectives that you hadn't before.

And so for me, like an example is. I was very, and I mean I still am, I guess, very anti-war that like when I entered college, I was a very environmental pacifist type of person, and I think I still am, but I took the causes and prevention of war, which I thought was an amazing class because it forced me to think about what are the structural dynamics that lead us to these conflicts and these situations and I had just had a totally different view of how of, of the world based on taking that class. And I would never have taken that class if I didn't have to, you know, meet some GE bucket requirement.

[00:26:36] Carmen: Oh, that's interesting. So after you took that class, were you more anti-war or was it?

[00:26:44] Danika: I dunno that it changed me in that way, but what it did was it helped me understand more like how the capitalist industrialism leads to a situation that continues to foment more. So, even though we see our society as being more technologically progressive, at the same time we are not eliminating the very basic causes that cause conflict between human populations.

So, that I think is a tension for people because we see people becoming more hopefully empathetic, and understanding, and culturally diverse but at the same time, we're causing these huge, resource differentials, and that always leads to war.

[00:27:34] Carmen: Yeah, that's amazing. And I. I know college has lately been having to really justify their bottom line, what's the return on investment?

And I think some of the pieces missing from that conversation, especially with the return on investment, is that part of the growth of the lifelong learning, of being exposed to different ways of thinking and developing different ways of thinking. And I don't know how to put a bottom line on that, but I think we could get better as educators.

With that messaging, you're going to have an experience here that's hopefully changes your life and helps you think critically and not necessarily in one way or the other, but that we really want people to think in a variety, have a exposure to a variety of different ways of thought as they develop their trajectory for life.

And sure, you can do all that stuff without a college education. Me personally, I love the structure. Right? Like you said, if that hadn't happened, maybe you wouldn't have thought of take picking up that book or studying that on the internet or finding that pathway. And it's great to see someone like Goodwill Hunting, you know, who picked up every library book.

But in reality, to have those structured pieces, I think are still at a lot of value.

[00:28:53] Danika: Yeah, I totally agree with you, Carmen. I mean, I think I'm constantly amazed how lucky I am to work in a university setting, and that concept of bringing a passion and excitement for all different fields of learning is something unique to a higher education environment.

So yes, there's lots of ways to learn things on the internet, but it's really amazing to have those people right next to you who are having those conversations and thinking those thoughts and reading those books and willing to talk to you about it.

[00:29:27] Carmen: Yeah, I totally agree.

[00:29:31] Carmen: Well, thinking about challenges here, especially for higher education, but also, you know, each generation has its own challenge. I'm sure if we went back to when we were in college, there were challenges that we had. But when you think about five years ahead of now, and so let's take our typical college student, and I know at East Bay we don't have typical college students necessarily, but we'll just take that as a hypothetical.

They usually have a four to five, maybe four to six-year trajectory when they enter college. And so if you look ahead at five years the first year students that are finishing their spring semester right now, they'll be graduating. What challenges do you see for education and for science in that time?

[00:30:23] Danika: Yeah, I think. I think right now it's kind of what it is is more that things are changing really quickly, and maybe people feel that all the time, I don't know, but I do think with the advent of AI there's a lot of positives happening, but there's a lot of unknown, and I think that the employment landscape is, is going to be different by the time these students graduate and by different, I mean, they're gonna be asked to maybe adapt faster, to a changing environment work environments. I think I would expect the work environment to be even more global, and so being an adaptable person and being able to work in diverse environments is actually going to be really important.

Maybe even more so than it is now, and then I guess for science, I'm hoping that the pendulum will swing back. What I mean by that is that there'll be more, federal interest in particular with supporting through grant mechanisms, through postdoctoral fellowships, through graduate fellowships, for instance, for students to really dig into the problems.

I think that climate change in particular, is going to become, and water scarcity and water quality, those are all things that aren't being solved, at least not as a rate that's going to make those problems go away in five years. So the more students we can get that are interested in that and willing to work in multidisciplinary teams on those problems and having the support of the state and federal government, and maybe even internationally, I think is gonna make a big difference.

[00:32:33] Carmen: I agree. I think those interdisciplinary teams, Danika, are especially going to be important for our students, and I think that'll be a really good challenge for us as educators and leaders in education to think about how to encourage those interdisciplinary teams. 'Cause part of that will be the scientific solutions, or even just understanding the science, but then the policies that need to be put in place are gonna come from a different area. And since we live in a capitalist society, the business solutions as well, and the climate pieces as we've seen already with more hurricanes and more tornadoes. Those, like you said, in the next five years are probably gonna get worse. And I worried about diseases.

[00:33:31] Danika: And that was the next thing I was gonna go to. Yes. Outbreaks. Yeah.

[00:33:36] Carmen: Different outbreaks. We're already seeing a lot of measles outbreaks, and I don't know if you remember this. God, this must have been eight years ago when we had Ebola come to the United States.

I was so scared.

[00:33:51] Danika: Yeah.

[00:33:52] Carmen: I, uh, of course I've read all these books like biohazard level four, you know, and virus books, and sometimes maybe we're too educated 'cause we've read a lot about how viruses work. And so when Ebola came, I was really worried, but luckily we were able to contain it. And if we don't have structures in place based on sound policy, which is based on science, that could have gone a different direction.

[00:34:20] Danika: Oh, most definitely. And I mean, even more recently, I mean, it wasn't so much of a human disease, but bird flu, I mean, that's why your eggs were so expensive, right? Like it affects everybody, I mean, we are a global society now, and I'm not sure that without interdisciplinary teams we'll be able to make any progress on any of these types of problems.

[00:34:48] Carmen: Yeah, and I think we hopefully we'll have that conversation with the faculty at East Bay about how can we do better there.

[00:34:58] Danika: Mm-hmm.

[00:34:58] Carmen: Okay. Well. I wanna switch a little bit and go a little bit more into hope and optimism.

Danika: Okay, great. Because there's a lot of really great things going on. There's great things going on in the Bay Area. There's great things going on in East Bay, and so I wonder what gives you hope and optimism about the future, about coming to work every day. What keeps you going?

[00:35:25] Danika: Yeah, those are good questions.

Also, I'm glad we're going to positive things. You know, as somebody who's always loved learning, I mean, it is amazing to me to see how easy it is to access information for younger people if they want it. So when they get inspired, when they love something, when they're passionate about something, they're able to throw themselves into it in a way that I don't think was possible when we were that age, because they can just look it up on YouTube. Like there aren't these barriers to information in the same way that there used to be, so that is very exciting and I see when people are inspired, they can take something and run with it, and that's just amazing.

Also just the connect easily to connect with other people that have similar interests to you, I think is really important because you don't feel necessarily as alone in your interests. I love coming to East Bay because I see people with passion, students, faculty, and staff, um, that really want to do something good for the world. And I, something that I've been saying to myself a lot lately is there's a lot of chaos right now. There's a lot of negativity. So when we have the opportunity to do something that legitimately helps people, we should do it. And I think that at East Bay I've never had a shortage of opportunities to help people, from, you know, finding them a fork and some food to helping write a grant proposal, whatever it is. That's the culture around here that I've had since I started, and I don't see that dissipating, even amidst, you know, the turmoil outside I feel here it's generally a space where people genuinely want to make an authentic difference in other people’s lives and feel a community. I feel that's true a lot, I mean even more broadly in the Bay Area, but this is where I spent a lot of my time. So, that's the community I feel I can support.

[00:37:58] Carmen: That's wonderful and I do wanna say that you do help people every day. I see that, and you work so hard, and it's such important work, and I am so appreciative of all the things you do, and I'm so glad you got to come on my podcast, and we got to talk about science and I'm really glad to hear your science story at ÍÑ¿ã°É Bay.

[00:38:17] Danika: Thank you, Carmen. This was a lot of fun and one of those situations where I don't think I normally would've done this, but I'm glad you asked me. Thank you.

[00:38:32] Carmen: Thank you.

Science stories from ÍÑ¿ã°É Bay. Discover, Learn, and Belong.

00:00:00 — Intro + Podcast overview
00:00:35 — Guest introduction: Dr. Danika LeDuc
00:03:05 — Childhood experiences with science (nature, curiosity, early lab exposure)
00:04:34 — Access to nature in urban environments
00:05:56 — Hands-on learning and early science engagement
00:06:47 — Green Biome Center + experiential learning at East Bay
00:07:36 — Choosing a path in science (early interests → chemistry)
00:10:19 — Course experiences shaping academic direction
00:11:28 — Challenges with teaching/learning styles (biology vs chemistry)
00:12:15 — Genetics as a bottleneck course discussion
00:12:47 — Career path, mentorship, and opportunities
00:16:04 — Equity in research opportunities for students
00:17:14 — Early interest in teaching (childhood “playing school”)
00:19:11 — Advice to students: uncertainty, resilience, and exploration
00:21:10 — Studying what you love + lifelong learning
00:22:17 — Value of general education (GE) courses
00:25:29 — Broader perspectives gained through GE (example: war studies class)
00:28:53 — Value of higher education beyond ROI
00:29:31 — Future challenges: AI, workforce changes, adaptability
00:32:33 — Climate change, water issues, and interdisciplinary science
00:33:31 — Disease outbreaks and public health concerns
00:34:48 — Importance of interdisciplinary collaboration
00:34:58 — Shift to optimism and hope
00:35:25 — Access to information + student opportunity today
00:36:30 — Community and purpose at ÍÑ¿ã°É Bay
00:37:58 — Closing reflections and appreciation
00:38:32 — Outro: “Discover, Learn, and Belong”

Dr. Brian Perry, professor of Biological Sciences at ÍÑ¿ã°É Bay, joins Science Stories to share how a childhood spent exploring the outdoors led him to a career in biology and mycology—the study of fungi. From hiking in the Sierra Nevada to identifying plants and birds in the East Bay hills, Brian reflects on the early experiences that shaped his passion for ecology, conservation, and biodiversity.

In this conversation, Brian talks about his nontraditional path to science, including an initial pursuit of photography before finding his way to biology, and how those experiences continue to influence his work today. He also shares insights into his teaching at ÍÑ¿ã°É Bay, mentoring students, and helping them navigate uncertainty as they discover their own paths in science.

The episode explores Brian’s research on fungal biodiversity and plant microbiomes, his fieldwork in places like Vanuatu, and the growing interest in fungi—from ecology to psychedelics. Along the way, the conversation highlights the transformative power of hands-on learning, the importance of staying curious, and the challenges and opportunities facing science education today.

Learn more about Brian

Episode 2: The Mushroom Scientist
Dr. Brian Perry on fungi, fieldwork, and finding your way in science

[00:00:07] CARMEN: This is Science Stories from ÍÑ¿ã°É Bay, a podcast where scientists come together in human conversation. In each episode, we share what sparks our guests interest in science and what they're doing now at ÍÑ¿ã°É Bay. Through research, classroom experiences, and industry and culture. From students to faculty to alumni, these are the voices shaping science in the Bay Area and at ÍÑ¿ã°É Bay. Welcome to Science Stories from ÍÑ¿ã°É Bay.

[00:00:46] CARMEN: I'm your host, Carmen Bustos Works. I am excited to be joined by Dr. Brian Perry, professor of Biological Sciences here at ÍÑ¿ã°É. Brian is a mycologist, which is an expert in mushrooms, and he works on organismal and evolutionary biology. He earned his BA and MA in Biology from San Francisco State University. After transferring from Diablo Valley College, he went on to complete a doctorate in organismal and evolutionary biology and at Harvard University.

[00:01:22] CARMEN: He previously served as a professor at the University of Hawaii at Hilo before joining the faculty at ÍÑ¿ã°É Bay in 2013. Here at East Bay, Brian runs an active research lab and is taught across the biology curriculum. He mentors both undergraduate and graduate students through hands on research, maintains a strong publication record, and has successfully secured funding to support his work. He's also served as the chair of the Biology Department. Welcome, Brian.

[00:01:55] BRIAN: Thanks for having me.

[00:01:57] CARMEN: Well, we'll start off with a question I like to ask everyone, and that's if you could tell me a little bit about an early childhood memory or an experience you had with science that shaped how you think and feel about science today.

[00:02:11] BRIAN: Of course. And I think my story's probably a little bit different than a lot of folks that are in the Biology Department or other departments here at East Bay. I grew up as a child trying to spend as much time as possible out of doors. And so, I had a father that was really into fishing and camping.

[00:02:28] BRIAN: So, every year we would spend a good chunk of our summers up in the Sierra Nevada, camping in various places, getting up early in the morning and going fishing. And then in the afternoons we would go hiking and exploring the woods. And so, for me, just growing up and having that be part of my normal activities, even as a kid growing up in the East Bay, I spent most of my free time hiking around the East Bay hills or biking, exploring that area. And so, for me, I was always really intrigued by the diversity of organisms that were there and also their interactions. You know, I was really into birds.

[00:03:02] BRIAN: I was really into animals to begin with. I taught myself to identify lots of bird species that we have in the East Bay. I taught myself to identify a whole bunch of plant species. And it was really those experiences as a kid, going to my local library, getting books, getting field guides, bringing them home, and trying to use those to identify organisms that I think really kind of pushed me towards the natural sciences.

[00:03:25] CARMEN: That's really interesting. Did you have other children that you hung out with, like in clubs or Boy Scouts or other organizations that work, like, helped you identify these organisms and birds and stuff?

[00:03:41] BRIAN: Yeah, to a degree. I had a lot of friends who were also very into the outdoors. And so, one of my best friends growing up, he was also really into fishing and hiking and camping. So, I did a lot of backpacking in the Sierra Nevada with his family, as well as a lot of fishing trips.

[00:03:57] BRIAN: And then it sounds weird to say it, but I was also really into hunting. And so, I would go with this good friend and his dad and their dogs, and we would go pheasant hunting up in Sonoma county early on these winter mornings and fall mornings. And so being out in the field, working the dogs in the cold and the fog, it was just this really magical experience for me. And it really did lead to me thinking about conservation and ecology and how to be a good steward of the land and how to conserve these populations, how to preserve them so that future generations could use them.

[00:04:30] BRIAN: We would go to these hunting clubs where they would raise these animals. They were basically raising pheasants, and then they'd release them on the property, and then we would go out and hunt them. And so that, to me, was interesting as a kid, because I realized that these were not animals that would normally occur here, and that these were things that were being raised and released here for us to hunt. And so it always made me think about, well, where did the native animals that would be here go have these animals, replaced them?

[00:04:59] BRIAN: What are we doing to the land by running these hunting clubs and things on it? And so it certainly led me to think about those sorts of issues. And then when I was in high school, I just tended to meet other people who were really into hiking, camping, backpacking, mountain biking. We did a lot of that. So anything we could do, any excuse we had to get outdoors and spend time in the environment we took.

[00:05:23] CARMEN: That's awesome. I love all of those things, and I didn't find those until later in life, so I'm so glad you found those earlier. I grew up in San Francisco, and so I did whatever I could to spend as much time in Golden Gate park or out at Ocean beach to hike around. And I wish I had just even discovered going across the Golden Gate Bridge earlier in my life to discover the Marin headland.

[00:05:52] BRIAN: Absolutely.

[00:05:53] CARMEN: Which is a magical place. And I can remember the first time I went to Pacifica and thinking, wow, how did you get here?


[00:06:02] CARMEN: So that's really cool. It also makes me think of, I don't know if you've heard of something called traditional ecological knowledge or TEK, and that's something I learned in Humboldt when I was up there and thinking about how native people steward the lands, how native people thought about hunting, how they thought about feeding themselves and how animals feed, and then working in this knowledge from Native American populations into how we do science.

[00:06:33] BRIAN: Absolutely. Yep. Yeah. And I also grew up, you know, in the East Bay hills, East Bay Regional Parks, they lease off big chunks of land to cattle ranching. And so as a kid, I was also very aware of that, just because we would be hiking and biking in these areas and there was always all this livestock around and we'd be going through gates to make sure, you know, the livestock didn't get out or into the state park and those sorts of things.

[00:06:53] BRIAN: So, yeah, there was a lot of those experiences that made me think about, exist about how did the indigenous peoples maintain these lands. And then I learned a lot in high school about just basic ecology, traditional knowledge, that sort of thing, and understanding how the land used to be managed by people and how much that had changed in the hundred years or so.

[00:07:15] CARMEN: And does that influence your science now or did it influence your scientific thinking before?

[00:07:22] BRIAN: Yeah, I think absolutely it does. I think those are my early sort of thoughts about preservation and conservation. And it certainly, you know, by the time I was in high school, I think I was already very much on that track to thinking about biological conservation. Earth Day sort of was reborn when I was in high school, right as I was getting ready to graduate. And so, I was one of the kids who was very involved with getting Earth Day celebrated at my high school.

[00:07:46] BRIAN: Right after I left high school, I was, you know, in college, but I was coming back to local high schools and, you know, giving lectures on ecology and that sort of thing as part of the Earth Day events that would be going on. And so, I think that those experiences I had as a kid, part of it was looking at how we use the land and how we manage the land. But a lot of it was thinking about how do we get that land back to where it used to be or really how do we preserve it for future generations so that these sorts of experiences will be available. Should I have a kid, will they be able to do the same things that I did as a kid growing up. And thankfully, at least here in the Bay Area, a lot of it is still there.

[00:08:28] CARMEN: So, with that in mind, what were your thoughts in terms of your career path and how did those, all those lived experiences of camping and backpacking kind of inform your decision to study biology? It sounds pretty natural, like listening to it. But was there an intentionality at some point where you're like, no, I'm going to be a biologist.

[00:08:48] BRIAN: There was a lot of confusion, I will say that. So, when as I graduated high school, the other thing I was really into was photography. And so again, anything that would get me out of doors. So, I spent a lot of time hiking around, taking pictures, doing sort of fine art, landscape photography. And so, I was always really interested in that aspect of the natural world, just sort of capturing it as an art form.

[00:09:11] BRIAN: And when I was looking at places to go to school, I really sort of had those two things in mind. Sort of photography, but also ecology, conservation, natural resource management, that sort of thing, biology in general. And so, I applied to Humboldt and I applied to Cal Poly, San Luis Obispo. And in both places, I think at Humboldt I applied to the forestry program. And at Cal Poly I applied to something called natural resource management.

[00:09:38] BRIAN: My brother was there, he was four years ahead of me and that's what he was studying. And it sounded really cool. And so, I applied to that and went down to Cal Poly, ended up choosing that as my school and enrolled in a series of courses my first quarter there, and absolutely hated all of them. And part of it was I got in a class that was Introduction to Forestry. And so, I was learning how many board feet of lumber I could get out of a tree of a certain diameter, breast height, and all this kind of stuff.

[00:10:09] BRIAN: And then I had a class where it was Parks and Rec and I had to do a semester project or a quarter project rather, where I had to design a park plan to keep people on the paths. And me being the smart aleck kid, I did a project that was designed fully to get people off the paths because that's what I felt people should be doing at parks. Not just staying on these little paved pathways, but getting off into the woods and experiencing them and exploring. And the teacher gave me an F, as I'm a teacher now. I know why, because I refuse to follow the instructions.

[00:10:41] BRIAN: But so, I really, I realized there that the approach that I had taken to my interest was the wrong one. And it wasn't going to get me sort of. It wasn't what I wanted to do with the natural world. That wasn't the approach I wanted. And so, I didn't know what to do.

[00:10:57] BRIAN: And so, I dropped out and I left Cal Poly, moved back to the Bay Area and went to Diablo Valley College and took prerequisites to be a biology major and prerequisites to be a fine art photography major. And the art classes were more fun, as you might imagine. And so, I ended up transferring to San Francisco State as a fine art major with a concentration in photography. And I was a semester away from graduating and sort of stopped one day and asked myself, what am I going to do with this degree? And is it really going to allow me to do the things in life that I really want to do, especially be connected to the natural world, but also to do more with it than just photograph it?

[00:11:40] BRIAN: I wanted to be involved with it. I wanted to study it. I wanted to work to conserve and preserve it. And so, I walked over and I changed my major to biology. And I was terrified to tell my parents because they thought I was going to be graduating within one semester.

[00:11:55] BRIAN: So, I kept that from them for a few weeks. And I was getting ready to enroll in biology classes for the following semester. And I was home having dinner with them. And my dad goes, so we heard from a friend of the family that you changed your major to biology. I sheepishly said, yeah.

[00:12:10] BRIAN: And his response was, oh, thank God. He said, we had no idea what you were going to do with that degree in photography. So, my parents were super supportive of it. But for me, it took me a really long time to figure out what approach to take to what my interests were in working with the natural world and biology. It took me a long time to get there, but soon as I got there, it all just clicked and I knew I was in the right place.

[00:12:40] CARMEN: I love that. I feel it's funny walking over here, too. We talked a little bit about our life. Paths have crossed before. The audience doesn't know this, but we went to the same college.

[00:12:53] CARMEN: I also went to San Francisco State at the same time, but I didn't meet you there. But it's interesting because this journey that you took that led you eventually to the right path place wasn't a straight path. But all these experiences with photography, I'm sure has served you well. I'm curious, did you do, like, the development in the red room with the red lights, which is. I don't know if anybody does that still.

[00:13:18] CARMEN: And if you've transformed to digital. I have so many other like photography questions I want to ask you now, but I'm kind of curious what you think now when, you know, we both have children of the same age. It's getting eerie, but I feel like I put so much pressure on my son to kind of figure it out now when we both have these amazing journeys where we didn't figure it out until later. I also transferred to San Francisco State as a psychology major. Changed my major a bunch of times.

[00:13:51] CARMEN: My mom driving our parents crazy.

[00:13:54] BRIAN: Yep.

[00:13:56] CARMEN: And now we're kind of put this pressure and I'm just kind of curious what you think about that. I think your son's also 15 or 16.

[00:14:03] BRIAN: Yeah, 15.

[00:14:04] CARMEN: And if they were like, oh, I'm gonna take a gap year or I wanna do this or maybe I'm not gonna go to college, what do you say? On one hand. And then how do you support that? Knowing that eventually it'll maybe work out, but probably, yeah.

[00:14:19] BRIAN: And you know, it's like I took it all for granted as a kid, but I didn't realize how amazing my parents were. And the fact that for not just me, I was the youngest of four, but they let all of us kids follow our own interests. You know, they let us figure out who we were as people and what it was we wanted to do. And they just stood in the background and supported us the whole time. And so that was really, you know, in retrospect, that was an incredible experience that, you know, I am delighted that I was able to experience or benefit from.

[00:14:50] BRIAN: And I try to do the same thing with my son. You know, he's, I see, I talk to his friends and everyone is constantly stressed out about are they going to, you know, score high enough on the AP exams to get into the AP classes and how many AP courses are you taking this year? They're all worried about their GPAs. So here he is, a sophomore and most of his friends are already so stressed out about what four year school they're going to get into when they graduate. And it kind of, to me that's really, it's heartbreaking in a sense because I feel like we're robbing them of really vital experiences that they should all be having as kids.

[00:15:25] BRIAN: It's like, I don't want to see 15 year olds stressed out about what college they're going to get into. And so, I try to do the same thing that my parents did. I encourage him to follow his interests and his passions and then I try to just support him as much as I Can. And he has found music on his own. He plays the guitar.

[00:15:45] BRIAN: He's found volleyball, so he's really, really hardcore volleyball player. And he does wonderful in some classes and he does terrible in others. And we just try and help him where he needs the help, but let him sort of figure out what his interests are. But I see freshmen in my classes that are no different. And so especially in biology, I think so many kids think they want to become medical doctors, they want to go into the medical field.

[00:16:13] BRIAN: They end up as a biology major and then realize that first year that this is not for them. And so, I also think that expecting a 16 or 17 year old to know what they want to do for the rest of their life is crazy. And so, in a perfect world, I think all these kids would have many years to take as many classes as they wanted to and explore their interests and to find something that works for them. And I do feel like I have that luxury. And I wish it's something that all students had.

[00:16:44] CARMEN: Yeah. And so, when you're talking to students now and you're giving them advice in that direction, like, what do they want to study? Or this wasn't for them, or they don't know if they want to go to medical school knowing that it's completely and totally normal, and knowing that we've kind of put this. I don't know if it's a falsehood or, you know, this. You've got to figure out what you want to do.

[00:17:06] CARMEN: You've got to get your degree so that you can get a job. Since I've been at East Bay, I've been hearing a lot of this, right?

[00:17:11] BRIAN: Absolutely.

[00:17:12] CARMEN: What's your job? What's the job gonna be? What's the intern that's going to lead to the first job? And we just got a new strategic plan from the chancellor's office. And now we're gonna be measured.

[00:17:21] CARMEN: Part of our success is the first job. Right. And to me, that stresses me out as a dean that I'm putting this pressure on another human being to get that first job. And so, when students come to you, I don't know if they have anxiety about that or what. What do you tell them?

[00:17:41] BRIAN: Yeah. And, you know, every student is different. I get some students that come to my office that know 100% what they want to do. They're motivated, they have a plan, and they're doing everything they can to make that plan happen. And then I get other students that come in and they don't have a clear idea of what it Is, you know, they want to do.

[00:18:03] BRIAN: And so, I spend a lot of time trying to ask them what their interests are. A lot of times I say, well, why did you become a bio major in the first place? And you get answers from, well, my parents want me to be a doctor too. My friends were all bio majors, so I'm a bio major too. And so, I really try and help them figure out what they're actually interested in.

[00:18:25] BRIAN: And then a lot of times they're in the wrong concentration. So maybe they come in and they're in one concentration. And we talk for a while and I realize that their interests are actually would be, well, better, you know, better served by a different concentration. So, I'll sort of help them make that transition if they want to. But I try not to tell them what they need, you know, what they have to do.

[00:18:47] BRIAN: I want them to come to these conclusions on their own. And so I guess I just like my own kid. I just try and be as supportive as possible and try and provide them with as much information as they need to make those decisions. It's hard. You know, part of me is like also being a professor and being an advisor, I'm also terrified to tell a student to do, to major in something that isn't going to allow them necessarily to get a great job when they leave college.

[00:19:14] BRIAN: And you know, I'm always asking students, do you plan to go to graduate school? Do you plan to go to professional school? Because that makes a huge difference in what they're doing. But if it's a student that just wants to enter the job market as soon as they get their undergraduate degree, then we have a pretty good idea of the skill set, at least in the Bay Area that's going to help them with that. And so we can at least push them in that direction.

[00:19:37] CARMEN: And when do they generally meet you? Is it kind of the first year of college in kind of a general bio for biology majors class? Is it the ecology for biology majors? That kind of first year class I think I was telling you about, I took a similar class at San Francisco State where we talked a lot about plants and animals.

[00:19:58] BRIAN: Yeah, so I do on occasion I teach. It's 140B for us is second semester General Bio and that's ecology and evolution. So that's what my specialty is. So, I teach that on occasion. And when I do, then yeah, then I meet those students when they're either second semester freshmen or they're first semester sophomores.

[00:20:16] BRIAN: And so, I'll start to get to know students Then. And then I teach evolution, which is. They have to. That would be basically two semesters after they finish 140B. And that's the last course that all bio majors have to take.

[00:20:30] BRIAN: And so, I get to know almost all of them in that class. And that's where I usually build a lot of relationships. Some students will have had me for 140B and then they have me again for evolution, which is 320. And they'll be, you know, so I get to know them really well. And then they'll come and they'll take upper division electives with me.

[00:20:48] CARMEN: And what kind of electives do you teach?

[00:20:50] BRIAN: So, I teach a couple. I do biology of fungi, so mycology, and that one is used by a couple of different concentrations. I teach a California fungi course which is sort of like how to identify mushrooms.

[00:21:04] CARMEN: It's a theme here.

[00:21:05] BRIAN: Yeah, this is my specialty. So those are those two courses I teach which are, you know, in my sort of research area of specialization. Then I teach population biology. That's a fun one. I teach a graduate level course which is phylogenetic methods.

[00:21:18] BRIAN: So, I'm teaching that this semester. It's been a while since I was chair for six years. I hadn't taught it for quite a while. And that one is really teaching the students how to do basically data analysis course. I used to teach it at both the undergrad and grad level.

[00:21:32] BRIAN: And then we just decided to keep it as a grad course. And then let's see what else. I'm going to take over, start teaching biogeography in fall. That'll still be a new one for me. I haven't taught it here before, but it's definitely one of the subject areas that I do research in.

[00:21:49] CARMEN: Okay, well, I have to bring this up because I learned so much from you the other day about mushrooms. And one of the things you taught me was that I should not be eating the raw mushrooms at the salad bar, which I have not been. But I did see them the other day at the salad bar and I thought, oh my gosh, I'm not gonna eat those raw mushrooms. But I think it's so fascinating because I'm sure you've heard of Michael Pollan.

[00:22:15] BRIAN: Oh, yes.

[00:22:16] CARMEN: And he is. He is a journalist, but he, I think has a background in biology and he just wrote this book about psychedelic mushrooms. I think it was more broad about therapies with different forms of consciousness and meditation, this and that and the other. But it had gotten to. He was being interviewed and I was listening to this interview about this book that he's written, changing your mind through using psychedelics and using mushrooms in a controlled way through therapy.

[00:22:53] CARMEN: And it's costing a thousand dollars to go on a mushroom journey.

[00:23:01] BRIAN: Wow.

[00:23:01] CARMEN: And I thought that was so fascinating as two people about our age who grew up in the city thinking about how things have really changed. Now it's a Cadillac environment, it's controlled environment, and it's much more geared towards therapies. But I thought that was really interesting. And I'm sure I wonder if students ask you, as they're looking at these different mushrooms, about psychedelic mushrooms, or just what kind of other questions they ask you in general, because it's such a fascinating topic.

[00:23:35] BRIAN: Yeah, we get into it a little bit in both of my courses. I do talk about the psychedelic species that we have here in California and a little bit about the historical and cultural uses of them. We talk about their ecology and we talk about the chemistry. So, what are the compounds they're forming that talk to my language. But you're right, it has become so.

[00:23:58] BRIAN: When I was in graduate school, we were warned that if you were in Golden Gate park and the rangers caught you with blue mushrooms or mushrooms that stained blue, they would arrest you because they knew that people were out in Golden Gate park looking for psychedelics. And now we're living in an age where you can mail order chocolate bars that have Psilocybe cubensis in them. So, it's really wild. And so, people that I've met as an adult, I have friends and they'll reach out to me a lot because they're intrigued by this. And a lot of them never had these experiences as youngsters, and they're very curious to try them now.

[00:24:34] BRIAN: And so, they always want sort of my recommendations, or do you think this is legit to buy these things online? It's a totally different world now from what it was even when I started studying mushrooms 25 years ago.

[00:24:49] CARMEN: Well, and it was interesting when I was listening to this interview with Michael Pollan, because there's not a lot of research in this area. I think the research that you do where you look at the compounds and you look at the ecology, but there's not a lot of research on the mind expanding and consciousness side. And I thought, well, in the College of Science here at East Bay, we have both psychology and we have your expertise. And I don't know if there's any type of collaborations you've ever talked about with people in the psychology department looking at these therapies and how they help people work through their traumas.

[00:25:25] BRIAN: Yeah, it's come up in a few conversations, but nothing's ever, we've never gone down that path. But you're right. I mean, a lot of the evidence that we do have is anecdotal. But we do know for microdosing, that's a total buzzword these days.

[00:25:41] BRIAN: But for PTSD and general anxiety, the work that has been done looking at microdosing, it appears to be an incredibly powerful way to deal with those situations. And so, I think that there's certainly plenty of research to be done there. I know that there is a lot of research going on in other places, but I think that it's a field that will continue to grow in the coming years and will maybe even be a recognized form of treatment at some point in time.

[00:26:10] CARMEN: So, what does your lab kind of look like? Do you have a lot of samples out?

[00:26:15] BRIAN: We do a ton of different things. So, I have students that are. One of the things we work on are called endophytic fungi. So, these are fungi that live inside the leaves of plants. So, they live inside of the leaves and other tissues of plants.

[00:26:28] BRIAN: And as we know, just like we have a microbiome that impacts our overall health, plants also have microbiomes that play a huge role in their ability to survive and their health and things like that. And so, we, with the Green Biome Institute, what my lab does in that organization, that research program there, is we look at the fungal microbiome of rare and endangered California plants. And so, we're going out sampling those plants and trying to document and understand all the different species of fungi that live inside of their leaves and other tissues. And then we also look at the fungi that occur in the soil with their roots. And so, trying to get a broader understanding of how these plants and fungi are interacting, both in positive and maybe in not so positive ways, depending on the situation.

[00:27:15] BRIAN: The other thing, and sort of what my area of expertise really is, is biodiversity studies. So, I got into this because I really wanted to travel and I wanted to spend time in jungles and forests and things, collecting mushrooms and then bringing them back to the laboratory and studying them. And so, we do a lot of that in my lab. I don't have any international fieldwork going on now, but right up until the pandemic started, we had been going down to Vanuatu in the South Pacific two to three times a year as part of a broader project down there to document plant diversity and fungal diversity as well as language diversity.

[00:27:52] CARMEN: That is amazing. And you haven't gone for a while.

[00:27:56] BRIAN: So, during the pandemic, they closed the borders of the country. And when they did reopen them, it was a situation where we would fly down there and then we'd have to spend two weeks in isolation in a hotel before we could then move on to other islands where we were doing our research. And so, during that period, the funding, it was a National Science foundation grant, and the funding eventually ran out on it. We got a couple extensions, but it was. We never ended.

[00:28:23] BRIAN: We didn't go back to do any field work after the pandemic. So, we're hoping in the future to get another grant to go back and do the same project in the. We were working in the southern part of Vanuatu. We want to go back and do it in the northern part of the country.

[00:28:38] CARMEN: Well, I want to go with you when you go. I think one of the things we're good at in the CSU especially, and I would say at San Francisco State and at East Bay, is transforming people's lives.

[00:28:48] BRIAN: Absolutely.

[00:28:49] CARMEN: And people who maybe didn't know exactly what they were going to do immediately and had to figure it out later, but anybody's lives. And I think going on these international trips and going to jungles and then learning about diversity and then the language diversity is so amazing, transformative experience for our students and for the people that we work with. So, I think that I can't say enough about how positive I think that is, especially as, you know, an inner-city kid who didn't leave San Francisco for a very long time. I didn't leave the country for the first time until I was in my 40s.

[00:29:26] CARMEN: And it was. I wish I had had those experiences early on. And I think we don't talk about that enough in science about these, you know, I'll call it study abroad. I think this is a little bit more specific. But they're also transformative.

[00:29:40] CARMEN: And to be able to get our students, especially think about some of our students that maybe grew up in Hayward or Oakland and maybe haven't been outside of that Bay Area or probably even their neighborhood that they grew up in to get them to go internationally. Yeah, that's amazing.

[00:29:58] BRIAN: It is amazing. And, you know, every year I teach my mycology courses in the fall, and one of the events we do is a field trip and we go up to Mendocino and it's a joint field trip with students from five other universities. So, it's UC Berkeley, San Francisco State, UC Davis, Fresno, Chico, even now, and sometimes even folks from Humboldt will come all the way down. And so, it's been going on for years. But we bring the students up and we spend all day out in the woods wandering around, collecting mushrooms and then bring them back to a field station that night and we identify them all.

[00:30:34] BRIAN: And all the professors walk around and talk about them, talk about their biology, their ecology. And then the next day we do, we have breakfast, we go out in the woods for a little bit longer and then we all come home. And every time I do this, I will have a handful of students that have never been in the woods. And so, they're taking my class and they get up there. They've never been to Mendocino.

[00:30:55] BRIAN: They've never been that far north in California. They've never, you know, especially in the middle of, you know, it's in November, so it's cold and wet and, you know, damp in the forest. And you get these students out walking around the forest and it's a completely, you know, alien environment for them. They've never done anything like this. And it's really amazing to watch, you know, their reaction to it.

[00:31:17] BRIAN: And I think it's, yeah, as you said, really transformative experiences.

[00:31:20] CARMEN: And it's hard for us, I think, as educators and scientists, at least it's hard for me to articulate that return on the investment.

[00:31:28] BRIAN: Yes, I fully agree.

[00:31:31] CARMEN: I'm gonna get better at it. But it's like we've got to be able to tell those stories.

[00:31:36] BRIAN: Yeah.

[00:31:37] CARMEN: Because that person's life now is forever changed and for the better.

[00:31:41] BRIAN: Absolutely.

[00:31:42] CARMEN: Okay, I want to ask you another question, moving us forward a little bit about challenges and just looking ahead five years, and I picked five years really, to get people to think about. That's, you know, if you're thinking about traditional first year student, that's about the time that they're going to spend with us, about five years. And what challenges do you see for education and for science in that time period?

[00:32:07] BRIAN: Yeah. And I think given the political situation in this country right now, the one thing that I've noticed and I've talked to my colleagues about this is that we're sort of seeing a level of disengagement in the classroom, but also just almost apathy on some level. Where the students are here, they're going through the motions, but it can be really tough to get them involved in the class. It can be really tough to get them to sort of, I feel like being caring about the course in any way other than that it's just one more hoop they have to jump through to get their degree. But I get the sense that a lot of students are in this period right now where they think that there's no jobs waiting for them at the end of this journey.

[00:32:50] BRIAN: And so, I think that has a really negative impact on their approach to courses. One of the things that we talk about a lot in the biology department is how do we get the kids engaged? I guess when I was a biology student, I felt incredibly lucky that I got to have these experiences. I always felt going to school was a privilege for me. I was working, my parents were helping me pay for college.

[00:33:14] BRIAN: But for me, it was like I felt so lucky to be going to college. And I'm not going to lie and say I liked all my courses. There's plenty of courses I didn't like, and there's plenty of courses I never went to lecture, so just like our students do as well. But when I had my major courses, I felt like I was so excited to take many of them and I wanted to get the most out of them. And I really want to get back to that with our students.

[00:33:41] BRIAN: I really want the students to be excited to come to class. I want them to be excited to come to lab. And it's hard. I mean, our students are so different than many other colleges. We have students that have families, they have full time jobs.

[00:33:56] BRIAN: And so, at the end of the day, maybe doing the homework for evolution is at the bottom of the list of things that they need to accomplish that day. And I try and work around that as best I can, but for me, that seems to be sort of the biggest challenge right now is getting our students engaged, getting them to understand the value of the education they're getting, but also to take advantage of what we're offering them, you know, to get them excited about the material, to want to actually come to lecture, and trying to get them to move beyond just that. The degree is, I don't know, I hate to say it this way, but sometimes I feel like the students view it as we've set up a bunch of barriers for them to basically push through in order to get this degree, rather than it being a series of opportunities for them to learn and grow. And so, I figure, like, I don't know how we do it, but I want us to get back to that.

[00:34:51] CARMEN: Yeah, and. And you're also giving them hope, right? You're also giving them hope for the future. Two things kind of come to mind is one, my son came home the other day from school and one of his teachers told their class that they were going to be the first generation that didn't do as well as their parents or didn't do better than their parents. And he was really spiraling down from that and started like, what kind of job is there going to be for me?

[00:35:18] CARMEN: And so, I think your experience, some of that. What's the hope there for us with the AI and how are things going to change and our robots going to take over the world? So, there's that piece. But I think also as educators, we can do a better job of explaining why we've put this package of courses together and why we have the package of general education and the package of science. Sometimes people probably think of them as two spheres that don't overlap.

[00:35:47] CARMEN: And so, as dean, I can definitely be better at being more intentional of explaining why we've put these together. And then when they don't work anymore, why do we repackage them? Right. Why do we continue to innovate and change things?

[00:36:04] BRIAN: Yeah. And I feel like having students that take a class because it fit an open spot in their schedule. I've had students take my classes, and they'll tell me that, and I say, well, why did you take this class? Oh, because I needed an elective, and it fit my schedule, and it's just like, oh, so you like. To me, it hurts.

[00:36:23] BRIAN: It's like, no, I want everyone in the class to be here because they want to learn about mushrooms. Let's say it's that. So, to have students that are there just kind of going through the motions, I feel like that's sort of where we have failed as a department to explain to the kids or make them realize that there's incredible opportunities for them here, and it's like they need to take advantage of it. The other side of the coin is that we all, at least in the biology department, we have tons of directed research that we're doing with undergrads. And so, I always have at least four or five undergrads working in my lab.

[00:36:57] BRIAN: And so, they're the ones that they truly value those experiences. They learn a lot. And most of my graduate students actually come from undergrads that volunteered, did independent study with me, and got totally hooked on mycology, and they come and do a master's with me.

[00:37:15] CARMEN: Well, on that note, what are you hopeful for in the future? What do you see for science and education?

[00:37:22] BRIAN: Yeah, I think getting us beyond the next couple of years and getting to a period where we know that there's more funding for science. So right now, we're in a very dry spell. And I think CSU East Bay has done an amazing job of finding alternate sources of funding to keep our research programs going. And the students are benefiting from that immensely. But I think getting back to a time when we can have multiple National Science foundation grants and multiple National Institutes of Health grants that have resources in them and funding in them to allow the students to have these research opportunities, that's what I, you know, I want to see us get back to that sort of period.

[00:38:06] BRIAN: I know that all the faculty in the department are here because that's what they want to do. We're here because we want to do research with students. We want to give them those opportunities. And so, I'm hopeful that we'll get back there.

[00:38:21] BRIAN: I think it's also a hard time in this country because there seems to be a very, there's a backlash against science after the pandemic. So, finger pointing, misinformation, politicization, basically it's been such an ugly five, six years since the pandemic started and people being blamed for this and that and fighting about masks and vaccines and all these sorts of things that I feel like scientists are also no longer viewed as experts in many cases.

[00:38:51] BRIAN: So we're seeing situations where like Fauci, you know, he gets…

[00:38:54] CARMEN: Or they don't want to trust the experts.

[00:38:56] BRIAN: Yeah, they don't trust the experts anymore. And now the experts are people that aren't experts. If you have social media, if you're an influencer, people are like they're going to take your advice over that of scientists. And it's such a weird time to be a science instructor, but also, I can imagine to be a science student when all this sort of stuff is going on in this country. So, you know, I'm hopeful that with the right people in office, we will get well beyond that and we'll get back to a more sane point in time where scientists are valued and scientists are trusted.

[00:39:29] BRIAN: And I think that will make a huge difference in not just us, but also in our students approach to majoring in chemistry or physics or biology, whatever…

[00:39:39] CARMEN: it might be, and becoming the next generation of scientists that hopefully will continue to change the world for better. I worry. Also, on that list with climate change.

[00:39:50] BRIAN: Yeah, absolutely. And that's something that, you know, seeing. Well, just what happened in the last week.

[00:39:55] CARMEN: Right. With the avalanche.

[00:39:57] BRIAN: Yeah. And then also just basically saying that all the scientific evidence we have, you know, about global warming is now being said. It doesn't exist. It's all lies. It's not real.

[00:40:06] BRIAN: And to have that happening, you know, it's just. Yeah, it's. It's tough.

[00:40:14] CARMEN: Well, I'm hopeful too, that we'll move past this time and we'll find a different way to adapt as an evolutionary biologist. Right, to the climate environment that we're creating right now, but also to how we're going to interact with AI and each other and move forward in a way that everybody thrives.

[00:40:41] BRIAN: Yep, agreed. And I do, you know, it's like I look at my son's generation and I look at him and his friends and I see at least maybe it's unique to our area, I'm not sure. But less and less dependence upon phones, I'm seeing that too, less and less. You know, he doesn't spend all day looking at TikTok and Instagram and Facebook and things like that. So, I'm seeing that they're starting to reject sort of the social media part of it is probably because so many of the older people are using social media, so the young kids don't want to use it.

[00:41:15] BRIAN: So maybe that's the secret. Maybe we all start using it more and they'll reject it completely. But I do feel that getting beyond that is one of the most important things. And I do feel utilizing AI, there seems to be almost like some rejection of AI among my son and his friends. They seem like they already distrust it, probably because they are looking at all these AI generated content.

[00:41:41] CARMEN: Yeah, the videos and stuff.

[00:41:43] BRIAN: The videos and things. And so, I think they're very suspicious of it. So, I think it's going to be very interesting in the coming years to see how they deal with it. But just like us, I think they'll find where it's useful and where it can be ignored.

[00:42:01] CARMEN: Well, thank you so much for coming in and having a conversation with me today and sharing your story from ÍÑ¿ã°É Bay.

[00:42:07] BRIAN: Thanks for having me.

[00:42:09] CARMEN: Science Stories from ÍÑ¿ã°É Bay. Discover, Learn and belong.

Learn more about Dr. Brian Perry’s research and lab at the Perry Mycology Lab website: perrymycolab.com. You can also follow ÍÑ¿ã°É Bay mycology on Instagram at @csuebmycology

00:00 Intro to Science Stories from ÍÑ¿ã°É Bay
00:00:46 Meet Dr. Brian Perry
00:01:57 Early childhood experiences with nature
00:03:25 Growing up outdoors: hiking, fishing, and hunting
00:05:23 Discovering Bay Area nature and public lands
00:06:02 Traditional ecological knowledge and land stewardship
00:07:15 How conservation shaped his scientific thinking
00:08:28 Finding the path to biology
00:10:57 From photography major to biology major
00:12:40 Nonlinear journeys and pressure on young people
00:14:19 Supporting students and children as they find their own path
00:16:44 Advising biology students through uncertainty
00:19:37 Teaching biology, evolution, and mycology at East Bay
00:21:49 Mushrooms, mycology, and psychedelic species
00:24:49 Research on psychedelics and mental health
00:26:10 Inside Dr. Perry’s lab: fungi, plants, and microbiomes
00:27:15 Fieldwork, biodiversity, and research in Vanuatu
00:28:38 Transformative experiences in science education
00:29:58 Taking students into the field for the first time
00:31:42 Challenges facing education and science
00:37:15 What gives him hope for the future
00:38:21 Funding, trust in science, and post-pandemic challenges
00:39:50 Climate change, misinformation, and public trust
00:40:14 Adapting to AI and the future
00:42:01 Closing remarks